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coop
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:34 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi all, just wondering if anyone has seen, read or used this online book before. It sounds too good to be true, and my Mother always says if something sounds too good to be true that is usually the case! But I thought if anyone had tried it and could give me an honest opinion it would be someone on this very informative forum!

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Mac & Tali
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:13 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I don't know of this author, or their training techniques, however, I did do a very brief bit of research about him and read this intro to his book about training the Bearded Collie...

You have a Bearded Collie. You want to know how to avoid its bad behaviours, right? Like pee at home, bark a lot, or even growling!

Then you need to know how to train your dog, don't you think? How to educate it so you don't need to worry about pee, growl, barks or anything but a good and healthy dog.

Here is where this book can help you.

I then searched his name and the German Shepherd Dog... I found this intro...

You have a German Shepherd. You want to know how to avoid its bad behaviours, right? Like pee at home, bark a lot, or even growling!

Then you need to know how to train your dog, don't you think? How to educate it so you don't need to worry about pee, growl, barks or anything but a good and healthy dog.

Here is where this book can help you.


then I tried Golden Retriever.... yep, you guessed it ..

You have a Golden Retriever. You want to know how to avoid its bad behaviours, right? Like pee at home, bark a lot, or even growling!

Then you need to know how to train your dog, don't you think? How to educate it so you don't need to worry about pee, growl, barks or anything but a good and healthy dog.

Here is where this book can help you.



They may be good books, but personally, I wouldn't touch them with someone else's barge pole.... Wink

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coop
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Mmmm interesting thanks for that, didn't think as laterally as you did- good call. Puts a whole different light on it.

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Mac & Tali
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:26 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

You're welcome....Smile . I do know of some good books, but classes with qualified trainers using positive reinforcement and reward based training is , in my opinion, the best way forward every time..
Have you got a particular training issue?. or is it more of a 'general enquiry'

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Laughing Bet there is one for the Yorkie too.....

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I agree with Mark, stay well clear. Again as Mark says a good training class using positive reinforcement and reward based training is the best way if you can find one.

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coop
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:52 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

[quote="Mac & Tali"]You're welcome....Smile . I do know of some good books, but classes with qualified trainers using positive reinforcement and reward based training is , in my opinion, the best way forward every time..
Have you got a particular training issue?. or is it more of a 'general enquiry'[/quote]

A few issues which we've been working on with a one to one trainer that deals only in positive reinforcement and reward based methods after going to weekly classes that weren't so good - water bottles etc. But sometimes we're still struggling with some stuff despite putting in lots of time and effort. Sadly as one issue subsides then another arises and feeling like we're no good at this sometimes. The main thing at the moment is when off lead and there is a dog chasing a ball he has to chase the dog and bark annoyingly at it ignoring all our recall training efforts. Otherwise he doesn't bother other dogs greatly. If only he was as interested in his ball or toy aa much!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:51 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Non of us get it right all the time. Most of us are being constantly trained by our Beardies from the day we have them, all any of us can do is our best .
One thing for sure if you don't enjoy you training classes then any benefits will be minimal.
I also am Inclined to agree with Mark, positive reinforcement and reward are often very effective. At a class we went to when doing recall the trainer encouraged people to make themselves more interesting to thier dogs than what was going on around them, Ie the dog with the ball, sometimes easier said than done, I am sure you are already aware there are a variety of types of class's from socialisation , ring raft , basic training to agility Maybe a differant style of class with a different instructor could help, good luck.

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Mac & Tali
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:52 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well Coop, It sounds like you are doing what you can with the available resources... i.e. using the good 1 to 1 trainer and dumping the not so good classes. It would be great if there were some good classes going on near you though as this may offer you more opportunities to work at his focus whilst distractions are going on.

My advice, for what it's worth, is just keep plugging away really.... take some extra tasty treats with you when ever you go out... maybe use a long line too, just in case he totally ignores you.. and practice those recalls.
As for being "No good at this sometimes"... welcome to our world Wink I realised a while ago that training a Beardie is all about partnership and communication so work on that too and have some fun with it. Oh, and however good we get at training our Beardies, they are always just that little bit better at training us Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:43 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Well said Mark Wink

One thing to remember Coop is that you have a herding/droving breed and their one mission in life is to chase anything that moves! Laughing What your boy is doing is chasing the other dog not the ball the other dog is chasing, so typical of beardie behaviour. Try to be one step ahead of him and if you see someone playing ball then call your boy back and put him on the lead until you are past. Try clicker training with some really tasty treats or find a toy that he just can't resist and only use it for recall training. There is a very good book that might help you called Total Recall by Pippa Mattinson.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:06 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks everyone for all the advice. Beginning to realise that when we think we've conquered an issue and let our guard down a little our wee lad is always gonna take advantage of that as that is in his nature. We've done and still do lots of the things you've all very kindly suggested, I suppose as we thought we'd moved past some of the issues taking those steps backwards makes us feel like we're failing him. But if that is what is needed we will do it. It is reassuring that others have experienced similar issues- we just need to accept that and not get too down when things aren't great.
On a happier nite we've been out for our morning romp and he was good as gold Very Happy

Thanks again folks.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:34 am Reply with quoteBack to top

With a young dog it can take some time for things to sink in and we may feel like itís not working but if we keeping going things often turn out right and all the hard work has been worth it. I would just say that some dogs local to me love to chase my own dog when he runs after his ball and they have a great time. But some dogs may behave this way due to some anxiety they may be feeling. I have worked with many beardies which have chased cars, buses, bikes and runners and everyone of them has done so because of anxiety, when a dog is anxious, natural behaviours associated with that breed may be used to fall back onto. With your dog not wanting to bother much with other dogís and that he is not interested in playing with his own ball they may be signs that he is anxious in some way as may be his annoying barking towards the other dogs he cashes. We can do all the training in the world but if there is an underlying emotional problem as why training is not being effective then this may need addressing. Another sign may be that you are having other problems one after the other.

You sound a very good owner to me so please try not to feel down as you have not failed your dog in anyway. There could be so many things going on here itís hard to say with any confidence what that is and what I have said is only a thought. My advice would be to approach this in another way, instead of trying to move forward with training look at what may be the cause of this training not being effective, is it his age, or are there other things going on. I would may be look for some help from someone who specialises in behaviour as they should be able to work things out for you and help build your confidence and the bond you have with your dog. Sometimes when things get on top of us itís good to stop and take stock of the situation and see whatís going on, is it working, if not why not, and what direction do we need to go in.

I hope things work out for you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:47 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Chris, he is still fairly young, just turned 16 months so that may be partly to blame. Most of the problems we've had have been around jumping up, excitability and recall. He was doing well at first but reverted to chasing dogs chasing their ball and generally coming back to us only when he feels like it. We're lucky in so many ways as he loves people is good with children, doesn't destroy or chew or have any separation issues and he doesn't chase bikes or traffic. He's exercised a lot and we set him tasks/games which help but I would say that he is very strong willed.
Many thanks for your advice, we will take it all on board.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Your welcome,

When dogs get overexcited in terms of their physiology there is fine line between being excited and anxiety, excited dogs can soon get stressed or anxious, and anxious dogs tend to over greet their owners and persistently jump up, so itís something to be aware of if things do not improve in the future as dogs donít have to show any behavioural signs of anxiety, they can lay down and appear calm but still suffer from anxiety.

I think when we think of dogs as being strong willed or stubborn this is our way of interpreting things, but there is usually a reason for this behaviour, they just may be unsure of things and need a little guidance.

Best Wishes

Chris

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:20 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

The best I can offer Coop is to enjoy your boy. It could help walkingwith another dog that he cn learn from. My experience is that they quickly find the nautey things are more fun. Priaise for the good things nd ignor (unless dangerous) those things you dont want him to do.
Rolling Eyes

Willow &

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:49 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Welcome to my world lol.Beardies can be the most stubborn,ignorant of dogs to break to herd sheep but oh boy when they finally get it you have 10 years of pure delight from a dog that can run up and down hills all day and still have a happy smile on its face at the end o it

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:16 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Coop just remember he is a teenager now, at that stage all previous learning can often go out the window for a while Laughing It will get better Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:28 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi,

At the age of 13 weeks my dog had a brilliant recall but as he matured and got to about a year old all the training we had done went and he would not come back on some occasions as investigating other things was more interesting than me. I made myself more interesting and within a few days we were back to where we were. So the age of a dog can influence itís behaviour a great deal and can make life confusing and frustrating for us as owners.

However I think in this case its different and it may not be an age thing. What I have been trying to say is that this is not a recall problem and a dog of any age may behave this way. If like my dog he would generally not come back then thatís a recall problem, the problem in this case is that the dog is chasing other dogs. If we replaced the other dog with a cyclist, runner or car and our dog behaved the same way, chasing and incessantly barking at it we would consider that a behavioural problem.

What happens when a dog chases like this and barks, the barking becomes self rewarding so the dog does it even more and as the dog continues to bark the barking becomes addictive and then the dog becomes stressed and anxious. Because the dog has become stressed there are changes in the front of the brain that prevents the dog from being able to access any previous things it has learned, so we can do as much recall training as we possibly are able to but that may not be sufficient to call a dog back when it has become so aroused, so itís not a recall problem, itís a chasing problem and it may not be related to a dogs age. Yes young dogs do run off to investigate and play with other dogs and wonít come back when they are called, but when it chases like this and barks annoyingly thatís a behavioural problem I feel and one which may continue into adulthood.

A good example of beadies becoming excited and then stressed is when in the car. I have seen so many that are excited to get into the car and then they start to bark. The barking then become addictive and the dog is unable to stop barking and becomes stressed. At this time the car soon becomes covered in salvia and the dog pants heavily between little barking breaks, itís quite upsetting to observe.

So other behaviours like jumping up are signs of excitement which can soon lead to stress, so help may be needed to help lower the dogs arousal level and make things more calmer, rather than obedience training, and we can think the dog is being strong willed but the reason is that itís to aroused and itís just not able to focus and concentrate on any training its learned. I have helped owners interact slightly differently than they have been doing and how to convey calmness to their dog and the dogs respond well to this, this is what I mean by guidance.

I agree with Barbara, interactions with calm dogs is good as long as he remains calm and you can reward him for being calm. How often do we interact and reward our dogs when they are excited but we rarely reward them for their calmness.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:40 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi all, I appreciate it is difficult for folks to say what the problem may be, us, his age or a behavioural problem, when you haven't seen him and tbh I didn't expect this much of a response from my original query about a book- not complaining, it's great and has got me thinking and I have to admit a little worried we may have a more serious issue than we thought. What I would say is he is and always has been very excitable and in classes he could rarely replicate what we were able to get him to do at home. But when you talk to other beardie people they almost always say ' Oh but that's beardies' but without having anything to compare him to its hard for me to distinguish what is normal beardie enthusiasm for everything and everyone and what is potentially what Chris is referring to, excitement tipping into anxiety. I'm inclined to think the dog chasing/barking is more behavioural as he becomes oblivious to anything or anyone else at that point in time and he's more likely to do this with other excitable breeds like cockers and springers.

Would be interested to hear more about reducing dogs arousal by 'owners interact(ing) slightly differently than they have been doing' and creating more calm communication. Do I need a specialised behaviourist for this or should our 1 to 1 trainer be aware of these techniques?

Thanks again all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Coop,

I am really sorry if I have caused you any worry, and these are just my thoughts based on my experience in working with beardies. Please donít worry these are not problems that cannot be improved.

It is very true what you say, beardies are an excitable breed and it is very hard to know what is normal and what isnít. I always think that we should train our dogs to what we want them to do and behave, not what we are told to do. Some owners like their beardies to jump up at them and do other things, were as I donít like dogs jumping up at me so with my dogs I have trained them not to jump up when they greet me or anyone else, but I have not taken away their excitement of meeting people, they still get excited but do not jump up. We have to train beardies in a way that controls their excitability but does not break their character and their individual personality, we have to embrace who they are and work with that. As owners as we are so close we donít always see things others may, having someone on the outside looking in can be so helpful and they often see things that we donít, only because we are so close. Often owners unknowingly encourage excitement and are surprised when they realise they are doing so. Being excitable is not always a bad thing, in fact it can actually help beardies overcome some problems, itís how we direct that excitement.

It sounds like to me that you are very capable and have all the skills to achieve what you want with your dog. It is really positive that you can achieve things in class with him although you struggle with him at home. That says to me that you can do it, and its harder in class due to all the distractions, so maybe have think what is different about being at home, why do you think you cannot achieve the same results at home that you can in class. Are you any different, are you more confident in class with the trainer and less confident at home, things like this.

Although it may not be a recall problem, there are times when the right recall training can help, if that makes any sense. Sometimes we can get through and that depends on when we apply it, and what we do, once the chase is on then itís harder to call the dog back.

I am not sure where you live but if you would like to send me a pm I would glad to give you may phone number if you would like to talk in more detail. You can tell me what you are doing in regards of his training and I may be able to suggest doing things slightly different. If you want to look for someone to help then may be a person with qualifications in behaviour may be of help.

When working with our dogs I like to think of them not as a breed, and that they are not all the same, I think of them as individuals and any training needs to be personally suited to them rather than one training method fits all beardies, if you know what I mean. Although we do have to consider behaviour individual to a particular breed at times, but we can still think of them as individuals. People ask me what do I do to stop a beardie barking, but that depends on that beardie and what works best for that dog.

Itís hard for me to say what I do, but many owners are surprised that I don't talk much to their dogs, I only really use body language to convey what I want and to calm a dog down, our voice can only make our dogs more excited, so everything we do with them is done in a calm way. I am not sure really how other behaviour people may work, I have been told that I am bit different, not sure if thatís good or bad really. I used to work with leopards so I had to be calm and I started using body language with them and it worked so I applied it when I worked with dogs and it helped a lot. We spend so much time telling our dogs to sit, lay down and come here, when I feel we need to work on a more emotional level with them, as they are emotional animals.

Your type of post is really interesting and I think we all like discussing things like this.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I have the Pippa Mattinson book - I found it very helpful.

I also have a beardie who behaves like an angel one minute and a little devil the next.

I once was foolish enough to say to someone, " She doesn't like being told what to do" only to be faced with raised eyebrows and " I wonder who that reminds me of "!! Embarassed Embarassed

I have found it very difficult to find a trainer of any sort until recently. I now go and work alongside an agility group, but doing my practices not theirs. Millie's brain goes into orbit if we try agility so we have changed tack. She has the opportunity to socialise as well as learning to ignore the distractions. So far it is working quite well.

Oh lordy, hope I haven't spoken too soon Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I've never had a problem with any of my Beardies learning. Thy are so intelligent and learn very fast. Beardies are just like that. I've always had 3, and they all played with each other. We only have one now as our other two have gone to the Rainbow Bridge, due to old age. Crying or Very sad They weren't interested in playing with toys, maybe a ball, sometimes. They all preferred to play chasing! Rolling Eyes Now that Sophie is on her own, She'll play with other dogs at the beach. Has a wonderful time, they are usually little ones, and seem to seek her out now! Very Happy She's nearly 12, but they love chasing each other. Very Happy They really have her on the run, but she keeps up! Laughing

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