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snowleopard
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

megamaree wrote:
snowleopard wrote:
Jacquietwig wrote:
Chris why three weeks?


Hi Chris,
Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you on this one,have you read my previous post.From my last litter of 11 puppies,I spent over 3 weeks on the sofa sleeping with them,which as you can imagine very tiring making sure they all fed well.As I pointed out in my previous posy 4 to 5 weeks is the earliest I would allow anyone interested in having one into my home.Those first 3 weeks are very precious particularly for the Mum.Puppies are only just being weaned,plus seeing anyone for the first time I would need to re-charge my batteries!The gradual change to solid food is also the time when any infections are likely to occur.Rearing of puppies is very rewarding if done properly,one stage at a time,but also hard work

Mary

Thatís fine Mary, as I say itís a personal preference. I have seen pups being born and raised and know the hard work and commitment it takes.

I saw Buddy at three weeks of age and I went each week from then on to see him before he came home with us. When we went to see mum and her pups, mum jumped all over my daughter but it was lovely. Then all the pups came out and proceed to climb over the children and play with them, then fell asleep on their laps. At this age the pups were actively ready to interact with us. I appreciate some infections can be transmitted but precautions can be taken and it is more likely that my children would contract an infection or disease from a puppy than the puppy from my children.






Hi Jacquie,

At three weeks a pups senses are starting to function and at this time its beneficial to their future emotional states and behaviour that they start to get used to different people and everyday things as soon as possible.

Itís a breeders personal choice as to what they want to do. I think some say 4 weeks to prevent any infections being passed onto their pups, donít quote me on this one.

Itís just my preference to buy a pup thatís been introduced to other people at 3 weeks of age.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

snowleopard wrote:
Robert wrote:
Thanks I am liaising with a Kennel Club Registered breeder who also shows dogs and has her own dog therapy and training centre so I think Im pretty safe but thanks for the advice

Price is much what I had expected £750 through £1000


As dogs become ever more popular there are some behaviourists, vets and breeders who are exploiting this to make as much money as they can from our lovely dogs. What happened to the days when it was for the love of dogs and their welfare.

I have spent the last 10 years now working with beardies that have had a few emotional upsets and they needed some support and help. Please dont take for granted that because someone if KC registered or has anything else that they are a good breeder. I have seen beardie pups from so called reputable breeders who show the same emotional upsets as pups from puppy farms.

My advice would be never buy a beardie pup or any pup if it has spent the first few weeks of its life in a kennel. Make sure the pups have been raised in a part of the home were we spend more of our time so they can get used to every sounds and noises, not raised in an upstairs room.

Always see mum and if mum is not very friendly and does not want to interact with you then walk away. Donít fall for the she is protective of her pups, she may well be but it also means she will not be a very good mum and her pups are more likely to suffer from stress as they mature. Also make sure that all the pups are friendly and want to interact with you, if they back off then walk away.

Donít buy a pup over 8 weeks old and I prefer not to buy a pup that people have only been able to come and see it at 4 weeks of age, this should be 3 weeks.

Ask the breeder what they have done to socialise and habituate their pups? Also ask about any health problems in the breed and in their line.

Its difficult to do but donít let your heart rule your head.


Thanks for the heartfelt view.... I really appreciate that and rest assured I will endeavour to ensure head over heart Cool Cool

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:53 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Sorry Chris,
But puppies at 3 weeks will still be feeding a lot from Mum,well mine are along with my friends litter.This is so important as it helps build a stronger immune system.Also puppies at this age are barely on their feet and will still be in the whelping box.I certainly would not allow anyone to handle my puppies at this age. I have no idea why you think children are likely to pick up an infection either,some people are under the impression that all puppies have worms .This is certainly not the case,I have never seen any.




snowleopard wrote:
megamaree wrote:
snowleopard wrote:
Jacquietwig wrote:
Chris why three weeks?


Hi Chris,
Sorry but I have to totally disagree with you on this one,have you read my previous post.From my last litter of 11 puppies,I spent over 3 weeks on the sofa sleeping with them,which as you can imagine very tiring making sure they all fed well.As I pointed out in my previous posy 4 to 5 weeks is the earliest I would allow anyone interested in having one into my home.Those first 3 weeks are very precious particularly for the Mum.Puppies are only just being weaned,plus seeing anyone for the first time I would need to re-charge my batteries!The gradual change to solid food is also the time when any infections are likely to occur.Rearing of puppies is very rewarding if done properly,one stage at a time,but also hard work

Mary

Thatís fine Mary, as I say itís a personal preference. I have seen pups being born and raised and know the hard work and commitment it takes.

I saw Buddy at three weeks of age and I went each week from then on to see him before he came home with us. When we went to see mum and her pups, mum jumped all over my daughter but it was lovely. Then all the pups came out and proceed to climb over the children and play with them, then fell asleep on their laps. At this age the pups were actively ready to interact with us. I appreciate some infections can be transmitted but precautions can be taken and it is more likely that my children would contract an infection or disease from a puppy than the puppy from my children.






Hi Jacquie,

At three weeks a pups senses are starting to function and at this time its beneficial to their future emotional states and behaviour that they start to get used to different people and everyday things as soon as possible.

Itís a breeders personal choice as to what they want to do. I think some say 4 weeks to prevent any infections being passed onto their pups, donít quote me on this one.

Itís just my preference to buy a pup thatís been introduced to other people at 3 weeks of age.
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snowleopard
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:21 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Mary,

I do appreciate your views and I respect what you say.

I never said Mary that children are likely to pick up an infection from a puppy, what I was suggesting was that the transmission of an infection between a puppy and human works both ways. When working with any animal you have to ensure you take precautions to prevent any passing on of an infection or disease from a human to an animal and an animal to a human.

I understand that puppies are vulnerable to infection in their first few weeks of life and the day they are born they are exposed to many potential pathogens and itís mums milk that aids in their survival and gives them protection from disease within the first 24 hours as does their mucus membrane. If pups were not protected by mums milk then they may not even make it to 3 weeks as you know. Buddyís breeder never let everyone come round at once, she took care to ensure the pups could feed when they wanted to. This had no detrimental effect upon Buddy, he is the calmest beardie I have ever met, he has no noise phobias or other fears and has helped many other beardies with their fear. At 10 years of age, only on Tuesday my vet said he is super fit.

There may be a breeder who lives on their own and does not have anyone come round to see them or the pups, so these pups may not get used to being handled by different people. There will be breeders that have a large family who also help out with the pups and their friends are constantly round helping and looking at the pups. So although this breeder for example may not let anyone view their pups till they are 4 weeks old by then they have already been introduced to many other people like family and friends. So itís not so much that pups should be seen and handled by potential new guardians at 3 weeks of age but I believe they should be introduced to some people by then. A friends beardie had pups and I dont think she was letting people visit till they were four weeks old. However she had her own family and I went round a couple of times before then with my children and they handled the pups and we took precautions to prevent any passing on of infections.

I think any way pups have the same level of immunity till they are 16 weeks old, it is only then that their immune system reaches a more protective level. So a 3 week old pup may be just as vulnerable to infection as a 4 week old pup. The increase in immunity may only be slight but the difference in getting used to people and being touched may be great.

I firmly believe that the first 8 weeks of a pups life is critical to its future emotional state and behaviour and my advice is just simply my own view based on my extensive experience. I am not saying this is what anyone should do, we are all entitled to our own views.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:29 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Robert wrote:
snowleopard wrote:
Robert wrote:
Thanks I am liaising with a Kennel Club Registered breeder who also shows dogs and has her own dog therapy and training centre so I think Im pretty safe but thanks for the advice

Price is much what I had expected £750 through £1000


As dogs become ever more popular there are some behaviourists, vets and breeders who are exploiting this to make as much money as they can from our lovely dogs. What happened to the days when it was for the love of dogs and their welfare.

I have spent the last 10 years now working with beardies that have had a few emotional upsets and they needed some support and help. Please dont take for granted that because someone if KC registered or has anything else that they are a good breeder. I have seen beardie pups from so called reputable breeders who show the same emotional upsets as pups from puppy farms.

My advice would be never buy a beardie pup or any pup if it has spent the first few weeks of its life in a kennel. Make sure the pups have been raised in a part of the home were we spend more of our time so they can get used to every sounds and noises, not raised in an upstairs room.

Always see mum and if mum is not very friendly and does not want to interact with you then walk away. Donít fall for the she is protective of her pups, she may well be but it also means she will not be a very good mum and her pups are more likely to suffer from stress as they mature. Also make sure that all the pups are friendly and want to interact with you, if they back off then walk away.

Donít buy a pup over 8 weeks old and I prefer not to buy a pup that people have only been able to come and see it at 4 weeks of age, this should be 3 weeks.

Ask the breeder what they have done to socialise and habituate their pups? Also ask about any health problems in the breed and in their line.

Its difficult to do but donít let your heart rule your head.


Thanks for the heartfelt view.... I really appreciate that and rest assured I will endeavour to ensure head over heart Cool Cool


Your welcome Robert, look forward to seeing some photos of your new companion. It's such an exciting time, I love it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

snowleopard wrote:
Jacquietwig wrote:
Chris why three weeks?


Hi Jacquie,

At three weeks a pups senses are starting to function and at this time its beneficial to their future emotional states and behaviour that they start to get used to different people and everyday things as soon as possible.

Itís just my preference to buy a pup thatís been introduced to other people at 3 weeks of age.


Chris I totally agree with you on that one; but I didn't let potential new owners meet the pups until they were around 5 weeks when I had an idea of their individual temperaments and the kind of home they would best suit. Also at that age pups are able to interact with people and therefore are more interesting. It's so easy for a new owner to fall for a little pup due to markings/colour/whatever and then it's difficult to change their minds if that pup is just not suited to the lifestyle they can offer.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:57 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I do agree with you, Jacquie. When I visited Foxie's breeders in 2010 to see the little pup she was then, she was about 4-5 weeks old, and her breeder was able to tell me that she was the liveliest and naughtiest in the litter (9 pups!), so no surprise, that's exactly what she has always been! Laughing Foxie also started to lick me as soon as I lifted her in my arms, which I took as a very good sign (I was right!). I was then able to confirm the pre-reservation I had made for her on the phone after seeing various photos of the available pups - her breeders live quite a distance from me.

However, I also agree with Chris, and still taking the example of my Foxie, her breeders always take their pups everywhere with their mum from a very early stage - Audrey is a groomer and she has a special corner in her salon where she puts her Beardie mum with her litter when she goes to work there, so that they can see, smell and hear the customers although they can't be handled or disturbed. A very good idea, I think, in addition to making the little ones used to travelling by car.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:22 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Very good points Jacquie I do think they are very valid. I must admit when I was sent photos of Buddy and his littermates I liked him because of his markings as he had a lot of white around his head and neck which I have a preference for. When we did go to see the pups all the pups made their way to see the children but Buddy made his way through them and came to me and licked my hand and that was it he was the one.

You are right it is much easier to match a puppy to the person once the pup has matured a little more. When observing new born pups what was interesting is that they are born with those personalities and you can see that in the way some role round more than others to get to mum and some are a bit quiet and need some encouragement, but as you say their personalities come through more as they get a little older.

I think what is important whether a breeder lets people see their pups at 3, 4 or 5 weeks is that at 3 weeks of age the pups are introduced to some people such as family or friends rather than having no socialisation at this stage. Seeing a pup born is amazing but it hit me that although their senses are not fully up and running their sense of touch is, and how important that sensation is to them throughout their lives. From day one they get used to mum touching them which then helps them cope with stress later in life and to human touch as well which we know is so important.

Having helped beardie pups from puppy farms I had to go and see where they came from to understand more about what they have experienced in their short lives so I went to a place that sells all breeds of pups. When you pick some of these pups up they just freeze in your arms as they have not had the pleasure of human touch from the day they were born, so sad. Sad

I donít wish to upset anyone with what I say but I have seen so many people who buy a puppy of different breeds and then find themselves in positions they don't know how to cope with because their pups were not socialised or habituated in the first few weeks of life. I know there are some very good beardie breeders as I am sure you were Jacquie with your knowledge of dogs and Mary is another, but there are some who need to be more educated about socialisation and habitation.

I just try to help people look for the right puppy for them and ensure they reduce the chances of buying a puppy that may develop some problems in the future. By doing this and highlighting it then the more this is done as potential puppy buyers become more educated about this then this may force some breeders who don't spend much time socialising or habituating their pups to do so a bit more.

I know with young pups itís not an easy job when you have say 8 little ones up to all sorts and by the time they are fed they are asleep and thereís not much time for anything else. Itís not about overloading the little ones with all sorts of things but just a little at a time each day not to stress them out to much. Such as if no one knocks on your door each day then press the door bell once a day, things like this. Little things make a big difference.

I donít know how many beardies I have seen who have some sort of anxiety about being in the car or they get over excited which turns to stress. Just putting the pups in the car one at a time now and again without driving anywhere would be of help.

On many occasions the first time a pup goes in a car is to the vets or when it goes to it's new home. Its good your friend did this Nina and she knows mum very well and that she can cope with being moved, but I have known mums who would find this a bit stressful and this is then passed onto her pups, and the pups have developed fear and have bitten due to being moved about each day. In later life they developed further behavioural problems due to fear, so you do have to be careful about moving mum and pups around when they are too young. But your friend sounds like she knows mum well and she is ok with this and it works for them all as Foxie is the proof of this. Smile

I feel itís important to add that some breeders do their upmost to socialise and habituate their pups but these pups still develop emotional upsets and behavioural problems later in life. We as puppy buyers have to appreciate the work a breeder has done with our new pup and that once we bring our new companion home then it is our responsibility to continue socialising and habituating our pup throughout its life. Socialisation and habitation is a lifelong commitment. I have seen dogs which play great with other dogs but have then been kept away from other dogs for a long time. When reintroduced to other dogs some of these dogs have developed fear aggression towards other dogs.

Sorry for the long post, I do go on. Wink Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:48 am Reply with quoteBack to top

No, Chris - and all of you - v interesting!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:26 am Reply with quoteBack to top

No Chris you carry on you always have interesting stuff to say Very Happy One of the things we always did with the pups was to take them out in the car at least twice before they went to their new homes; not very far just so that the first time they went in a car was not to be kidnapped by virtual strangers! Laughing Pups were always handled everyday and introduced to friends and family, we also got them used to wearing collars and eventually having a lead attached. They all knew sit, stand, wait and come before they left us Cool

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:38 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Don't apologize, Chris, it's always so interesting to read your posts! I totally agree with what you say about socialization, habituation, etc. Just wanted to add that yes, Foxie's breeders know their dogs extremely well and there's always been mutual love and trust between them, which I suppose makes it possible for mum and pups (and dad too, usually!) to be moved in the family car without any problems.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Judy, Jacquie and Nina Smile

Can I just clarify that my comments to Robert was just general advice I give people when they are looking for a puppy. I was by no means directing it at any breeder in particular or the person Robert is in conversation with who I donít know. I am regularly asked by people what to look for when you go and view puppies and what I stated in my post was just some of the advice I give, so its general advice.

When helping dogs with emotional and behavioural problems you never get to see the good things, only the bad. No one ever calls you to say I just want to tell you how great my new puppy is, itís the complete opposite. What you do is try and make the bad good. Itís unbelievably rewarding when the bad does become good and you played a part in that, but itís not always possible and the bad remains but has to be managed. You want to stop the bad and make all things good and the way to do this is by preventing the bad in the first place and a way of doing this is in the advice you give to people when they are looking for a puppy.

I have seen so many beardies Iíve lost count. At one time I saw so many puppies from one breeder I knew who the breeder was by the dogs behaviour and this breeder was a so called reputable breeder. I know some great beardie breeders but I only got to know them in other ways through helping the BCC.

When buying a puppy the advice I give I think is quite appropriate to consider whoever anyone may be buying a puppy from. A good breeder wonít be worried about answering any questions you have and will be only to pleased you have asked them as it shows you care.

Thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:50 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

snowleopard wrote:
A good breeder wonít be worried about answering any questions you have and will be only to pleased you have asked them as it shows you care.


100% in agreement with that comment!

And I think a good breeder will want to follow up and know how their puppy is doing in its new family, and will tell the pup's buyers that they can call for guidance any time they are in doubt - praising Foxie's breeders again Very Happy as they did so and were always there (still are!!!) for me when I had questions. I've known them to drive over 300 miles from their home to take a puppy back from its buyers and give them their money back, when they believed they were not the right family for the little dog and didn't want it to stay there!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thatís lovely to hear Nina, the breeders of Foxie's sound great. I still keep in touch with Buddyís breeder which is nice, they have become friends.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:53 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Wow that is fantastic and so exciting look forward to seeing the new kid on the block. As an assured breeder I can confirm that we have a lot of things we have to comply to and have inspections and check our paper work given to new new owners and continued support. We have people waiting for beardies that we are already forming great relationships with and hope this will continue after they have their new puppy well into the future.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I must apologise for a previous post regarding an experience of mine which I have now removed.

Today I have clearly upset many people by what I have said so I would just like to go over the advice I gave Robert and to anyone wishing to buy a puppy as a companion in more detail.

1, Never buy a pup that has been born and raised in a kennel, barn or shut away in a conservatory or upstairs room. These pups may suffer from some form of fear or anxiety due to not experiencing many household noises and objects and may find it quite stressful when they find themselves in a home environment for the first time, or new places in a home they have not yet experienced. Some of these pups may go onto suffer from other fears as they mature in the coming months. Pups should be raised in a place where we spend most of our time.

2, Always see mum to ensure she is sociable and friendly and dad if possible. If she has maternal aggression or is not sociable then she may be a nervous mum and science has shown us that nervous mums donít make good mums and her offspring may not be able to cope well with stress in later life because of this.

3, Make sure the pups are friendly and that they want to interact with you, if they back away this shows they already have some anxieties which would be concerning.

4, Donít buy a pup more than 8 weeks of age. The older a pup is when you buy it the harder it becomes for you to socialise and habituate him or her. Science tells us as a pup matures this becomes increasingly difficult.

5, I will rephrase this one, make sure a pup has had some contact with the breeders family or friends from 3 weeks of age.

6, The Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme is great and it takes a lot of time and commitment to be part of it. However this scheme is no guarantee a pup will be socialised and habituated the way it should be. Ask the breeder whoever they are what they have done to socialise and habituate their pups, a good breeder will be happy to tell you. Also ask about any health problems in the breed and have these impacted on the breeders line in any way.

My advice is based on personal experience and good science.

Thanks

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:00 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Jacquietwig wrote:
No Chris you carry on you always have interesting stuff to say Very Happy One of the things we always did with the pups was to take them out in the car at least twice before they went to their new homes; not very far just so that the first time they went in a car was not to be kidnapped by virtual strangers! Laughing Pups were always handled everyday and introduced to friends and family, we also got them used to wearing collars and eventually having a lead attached. They all knew sit, stand, wait and come before they left us Cool


Thanks Jacquie,

I would have loved one of your pups, you did lots with them. You must have got so much pleasure from all you did.

Many people buy a puppy and then wait to start any training till the puppy is able to go outside but you have shown that pups are capable of learning from a young age. As soon as I brought my dogs home I started showing them how to walk nicely and to come back to me so when we went on a walk for the first time they were great. Very Happy

Thanks

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:35 am Reply with quoteBack to top

If I may just add that if a girly dog (donít like using the word bitch) has a good temperament and is in good health and her pups are socialised and habituated by a breeder then there is nothing to worry about in the advice I have given.

Also if someone is not confident that they are going to be able to sell their pups before they are 8 weeks of age and that the person may have them for some time after before they are sold then may be its not the best time for mum to have pups. I know this is not usually a problem any way for beardie pups as Barbara has highlighted.

I think somehow I may have just been misunderstood.

Thanks again.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:48 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Sorry not sure what I did was editing another post. Embarassed

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:56 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

It's very clear that you all have a great passion for Beardies Smile Please, ALL of you, rest assured that I have been in regular contact with the breeder since before mum came into season. And, I have already seen photo's and videos of the pups with mum. They are ready to meet their potential new owners later this month and, like others, I will be going to meet the breeder, mum and all the pups. Arrangements have already been made regarding final collection and lots of discussion about diets, training so I think we'll be fine.

I am quite confident that the breeder is a very good and caring person, who keeps a number of Beardies and show them too.

Oh yes, and to reassure you all, we have owned beardies previously, two and both were gorgeous wonderful dogs with totally different personalities that we loved dearly.

The only point the breeder and I have not yet discussed is price. I knew what I expected to pay and my initial enquiry here, on this forum, was to confirm that I wasn't wildly out with those thoughts. Again, your feedback has confirmed that. So again thanks.

I will let you know, which boy, my wife and I choose. We already have a name for him.... Anticipation and excitement.... We'll let you all know that too when all is settled.

Thanks

Robert Razz

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Robert thatís great news, I am pleased for you and your wife.

Yes, you only asked how much a beardie was and got me rambling on because some people have totally misunderstood what I said as it has been interpreted that I was saying to you that you have to be careful of the breeder you are thinking of buying a pup from when I did not even know who that was , I do now but not personally.

I have made myself clear a few times that this was not the case, my advice was to anyone thinking of buying a pup from anyone whoever they are or whatever they breed.

Hope it all works out great for you Robert and your new pup.

Take care.

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Robert
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:31 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Just to keep you up dated on the puppy front. My wife and I have now met the pups and the breeder, who's a lovely lady and clearly very very passionate about all her beardies. How she manages with her large beardie family, keeping them all looking so good, amazes me. They're all absolutely beautiful and clearly indicate that we're at the right place.

We have made our preferences known but as we are not "first in line" a final choice hasn't been settled upon as yet.

We will be seeing the pups again and as often as we are permitted to..... Frankly, all the pups are lovely and in the end I think it will be the pup who chooses us. They're all still a while away from being able to go to their new homes and they're all looking very fit and healthy.

I will post a photo of our new pup as soon as we're all agreed... that is the pup of course, oh... and the wife, me and the breeder. We'll also reveal then name we've decided on for the put then, too. I did say in a previous post... that we're decided on a boy pup Smile and we've chosen a name, that you'll never guess in a million years :p

Have to try maintain the anonymity at the moment.... however, I think there's more than one other member who knows the identity of our breeder, so anyone who does guess his name will clearly be in contact with her Wink Wink Wink Wink

Robert

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Nina07
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:20 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Oooohhh I love a bit of suspense... so long as it doesn't last too long!!! Laughing

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judy g
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:04 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Very Happy Lovely news...can I put forward a name for him.....Fluffy? Cool Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:55 am Reply with quoteBack to top

judy g wrote:
Very Happy Lovely news...can I put forward a name for him.....Fluffy? Cool Laughing



Ooooooh no. Thanks for the suggestion but as I said, we've chosen his name and it's definitely not Fluffy
Very Happy

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