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snowleopard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:41 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I watched an American TV documentary last night about dog and cat food. I always knew that kibble was not ideal and the ingredients in some of it are very questionable, but when I saw were some of the actual food comes from it turned my stomach to think I am feeding that to my dogs, I feel really guilty now.

I knew heating the food at such temperatures as they do to kill off any bacteria which I am sure there must be plenty, can destroy any nutrients in the food but it also causes two cancer causing chemicals to become present in the food. There is that many additives and preservatives in some kibble that it has a shelf life of 25 years.

The two main vets in the program were in favour of raw feeding but other vets were against it which only complicates things. They said that there is no scientific evidence to say that raw feeding is good or bad for dogs as this study would take 10 years and would cost a lot of money so no one wants to do it. But has this even been done with kibble? Recently a friends little dog had to have emergency surgery due to her intestines becoming blocked. She was fed a ready meal raw food and small fragments of bone in the food became stuck in her intestines and this built up over time.

My dog Buddy is now refusing his food, he has done this before and I have to find another one but he can only tolerate about two types of kibble. I find myself in a dilemma as I feel guilty giving him kibble and I donít want to give him raw food. I also have to consider what I can afford.

The advice the vet gave was if you cannot afford to feed raw then feed a better quality kibble but some of them are so expensive. You can pay £40 for a bag of kibble but you dont know what is really in it. My own dogs went really hypo on one good quality kibble and that was hypoallergenic.

I did not know how kibble came about and they said that in World War 2 they had to stop putting dog and cat food in tins as they needed the metal for other things so they had to come up with something that would fit in a back.

I feel that I meet my dogs needs in that I make sure they have plenty of exercise, they have a nice comfortable place to live, sleep and rest, I keep them nice and clean and look after their coats, I make sure they have vet care if needed but although some of the kibble comes in lovely looking bags I am feeding them rubbish.

I always try to find what's the best food for my dogs as individuals but I feel that food is not even out there now.

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Jacquietwig
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Chris I've known about this for many years and have to say there is no way I would feed my dogs kibble; but I do use a very good quality one (Millies Wolfheart) as treats when out and about. Mine are all raw fed and although I know you don't want to do this and totally respect your views, would just like to say for other people reading this, that it is not as expensive as you might think as you need a lot less raw than when feeding rubbish kibble. The same applies to the good quality kibbles, don't compare bag prices as you need to feed far less of, say Millies, than you would something cheap as there are so many fillers in the cheap food dogs can't digest, so it just comes out the other end. Have a look at Millies Wolfheart, they do a wide range of kibbles and you may find that perhaps their 50/50 mixes would suit Buddy as it's 50/50 fish/meat and veg/fruit. Here is a link to their site:
https://www.millieswolfheart.co.uk/

Another option and one which I used for many years before going back to raw is Naturediet. It's a wet food (though I see they are now doing a dried version) which is minimally processed and they also do a grain free version. Dogs do really well on it and not many that I know of have refused to eat it. Again as you need far less of it than cheap kibbles it is not as expensive as you might think, Berriewood Pet Supplies online do a good price if you buy 4 boxes. Maybe find a local stockist and try a few packs first though.
https://www.naturediet.co.uk/

I think maybe your friends little dog had a problem due to the bone not being ground small enough as I have noticed some complete raw mixes do have noticable pieces of bone in and if a dog is not used to raw their stomach acids will not be strong enough to digest these. I only use mixes where you can't see the bone.

Hope you get something sorted and do let us know what you decide.

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snowleopard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:38 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Jacquie for your help I appreciate it.

Both Millies Wolfheart and Naturediet sound good I will have a look at these in more detail.

Itís interesting what you say about raw as I assumed it was more expensive so will have a look at it. As you know I have not been keen on this but I would be prepared to try it as long as it's a balanced diet, whatever makes Buddy happy.

Thank you.

Chris

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:22 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

My puppy, Zebo, came complete with a diet feeding sheet from his Breeder and I have followed it faithfully as he seems to look forward to every meal.
I order the food from FISH4DOGS and it is always delivered very quickly - he adores fish!! He gets 1oz of the fish, potato and pea kibble together with a 3oz pile of raw minced meat on the top, which I buy from the butcher (or the supermarket if it is on offer). He is not yet 7 months old but the total amount of food he gets each day is 12 oz. ie. 3 x 4oz. Occasionally, I change the mince for salmon or trout mouse and that seems to be very popular, too.
Like you, I was horrified when I discovered just exactly what was considered acceptable to put into pet food. My dog is worth more to me than filling him up with cheap and nasty food from questionable sources!

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Last edited by Derwendolly on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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snowleopard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:54 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Shirley for letting me know about Zebo, thatís great when your pup is started off on a good food.

I have heard many people talk about FISH4DOGS and they are very happy with it.

When I have read the nicely packaged bags of food and have seen the word derivatives I just knew there is some rubbish in there but seeing that for myself last night really hit home.

Thanks

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Jacquietwig
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:59 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Another thing to watch Chris regarding pre-prepared raw diets is that a lot of them have far too much bone in them, the correct ratio is 10% bone. I've noticed that the nutriment bone in varieties seem to be very high in bone now, I think they are just using carcasses. That of course would also cause blockage problems. I really like Poppys Picnic, they use human grade local meat, hand prepare and its 10% bone.

Going back to when kibble first made an appearance if I remember rightly it popped up in the UK in the 70's (I'm really old Shocked Laughing ), and came about when the human food industry were looking for an outlet for their waste products.

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Jacquietwig
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Derwendolly wrote:
My puppy, Zebo, came complete with a diet feeding sheet from his Breeder and I have followed it faithfully as he seems to look forward to every meal.
I order the food from FISH4DOGS and it is always delivered very quickly - he adores fish!! He gets 1oz of the fish, potato and pea kibble together with a 3oz pile of raw minced meat on the top, which I buy from the butcher (or the supermarket if it is on offer). He is not yet 7 months old but the total amount of food he gets each day is 12 oz. ie. 3 x 4oz. Occasionally, I change the mince for salmon or trout mouse and that seems to be very popular, too.
Like you, I was horrified when I discovered just exactly what was considered acceptable to put into pet food. My dog is worth more to me than filling him up with cheap and nasty food from unquestionable sources!


Shirley when you feed raw meat from the butcher do make sure that any beef you use has been frozen for at least 24 hours before you feed it (thaw first obviousley) as it carries the neospora parasite which will kill your dog. Neospora is killed by freezing for 24 hours.

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Jacquietwig
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:04 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

One thing I don't like about Fish4dogs is they use beet pulp in all their recipes. There is controversy over beet pulp with some saying it's ok and others that it can cause diabetes. In the end it's actually just a cheap filler anyway.

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snowleopard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:33 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Jacquietwig wrote:
Another thing to watch Chris regarding pre-prepared raw diets is that a lot of them have far too much bone in them, the correct ratio is 10% bone. I've noticed that the nutriment bone in varieties seem to be very high in bone now, I think they are just using carcasses. That of course would also cause blockage problems. I really like Poppys Picnic, they use human grade local meat, hand prepare and its 10% bone.

Going back to when kibble first made an appearance if I remember rightly it popped up in the UK in the 70's (I'm really old Shocked Laughing ), and came about when the human food industry were looking for an outlet for their waste products.


Thank you Jacquie I will keep a look out for how much bone is in the food and thank you for your help and advice I knew you would be of help.

Youíre not old, whatís in a number, you are someone full of wisdom and knowledge.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

[quote="Jacquietwig
Shirley when you feed raw meat from the butcher do make sure that any beef you use has been frozen for at least 24 hours before you feed it (thaw first obviously) as it carries the neospora parasite which will kill your dog. Neospora is killed by freezing for 24 hours.[/quote]

No, I don't! I rather assume that being top quality human food it is safe for my little canine treasure! But, all is not lost, as I usually buy 3 kilos and then portion it up and put them in the freezer and get out as required for the next day. When I buy it from the supermarket, I do not always freeze that as I will open a 500gm pack and use that over a couple of days, although when I have bought more than 1 pack (on offer) I do freeze the 'spares'.

Feeding a dog is not simple is it??? Rolling Eyes

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Jacquietwig
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:08 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

snowleopard wrote:
Jacquietwig wrote:
Another thing to watch Chris regarding pre-prepared raw diets is that a lot of them have far too much bone in them, the correct ratio is 10% bone. I've noticed that the nutriment bone in varieties seem to be very high in bone now, I think they are just using carcasses. That of course would also cause blockage problems. I really like Poppys Picnic, they use human grade local meat, hand prepare and its 10% bone.

Going back to when kibble first made an appearance if I remember rightly it popped up in the UK in the 70's (I'm really old Shocked Laughing ), and came about when the human food industry were looking for an outlet for their waste products.


Thank you Jacquie I will keep a look out for how much bone is in the food and thank you for your help and advice I knew you would be of help.

Youíre not old, whatís in a number, you are someone full of wisdom and knowledge.


Embarassed Embarassed Laughing Laughing

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Jacquietwig
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:11 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Derwendolly wrote:
[quote="Jacquietwig
Shirley when you feed raw meat from the butcher do make sure that any beef you use has been frozen for at least 24 hours before you feed it (thaw first obviously) as it carries the neospora parasite which will kill your dog. Neospora is killed by freezing for 24 hours.


No, I don't! I rather assume that being top quality human food it is safe for my little canine treasure! But, all is not lost, as I usually buy 3 kilos and then portion it up and put them in the freezer and get out as required for the next day. When I buy it from the supermarket, I do not always freeze that as I will open a 500gm pack and use that over a couple of days, although when I have bought more than 1 pack (on offer) I do freeze the 'spares'.

Feeding a dog is not simple is it??? Rolling Eyes[/quote]

It's a bit of a minefield Laughing Neospora is killed by cooking so is not considered a danger to human health. At least you are now aware and can make sure the meat is frozen first. Wink

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:36 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I have been feeding raw for 6 1/2 years and like Jacquie freeze my mince because of the bacteria, in fact i never feed any meat unless it has been frozen for a few days. Chris i would say it costs me £10 a week to feed my 2 girls and that includes beef chunks, tripe, duck necks, veg, yogurt etc which compared to what a bag of kibble costs i would say was good going. I also don't add a carb to mine to bulk it out so you could make it cheaper but adding potato or rice. Lots of kibble bags are getting smaller but staying the same price.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:44 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Chris, as you know I feed raw.I changed from using Nutriment to Natural Instinct as the bone is much finer,and is better quality having more meat content.I use the Natural Chicken and Turkey and Tripe flavours,and often mix the two together..Nutriment and Natural Instinct were one of the same,but split a few years ago.Better quality food from Natural Instinct and better service as well!! I agree with Jackie on the Fish for Dogs,does contain Beet Pulp.Like many kibble foods,contain so many fillers in different forms.I have been feeding raw for several years,and most certainly would not change back.I think if you contact Natural Instinct,they may send you some free of charge to try.

www.naturalinstinct.com

Mary
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snowleopard
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:45 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks Nikki that is much cheaper than I thought it would be, thatís very good.

Thanks for all the help I appreciate it. It would be lovely to see Buddy actually enjoy his meals, Holly gets excited about eating anything. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:50 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

megamaree wrote:
Hi Chris, as you know I feed raw.I changed from using Nutriment to Natural Instinct as the bone is much finer,and is better quality having more meat content.I use the Natural Chicken and Turkey and Tripe flavours,and often mix the two together..Nutriment and Natural Instinct were one of the same,but split a few years ago.Better quality food from Natural Instinct and better service as well!! I agree with Jackie on the Fish for Dogs,does contain Beet Pulp.Like many kibble foods,contain so many fillers in different forms.I have been feeding raw for several years,and most certainly would not change back.I think if you contact Natural Instinct,they may send you some free of charge to try.

www.naturalinstinct.com

Mary


Thanks Mary I will have good read of their web site. I have lots of options to think about.

Thank you

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:10 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I am sorry I have not let you know how Buddyís diet is going.

Buddy did not like raw food which I prepared myself for him, he just looked at it and walked away. I think I recall someone saying on the forum in another thread that it can take some dogs a while to start to eat raw food but with Buddyís health problem I did not want to mess about so I put him on a better quality dry food mixed with a new wet food and he loves it.

Although many of you feed your dogs raw food I donít think feeding raw food to my dogs is for me, I didnít feel comfortable with it but I gave it a try.

I was reading in an article that a charity has banned dogs fed raw food from going into schools to encourage children to read, as the children read to the dogs, due to the transfer of pathogens from the dogs to the children. One raw food manufacture said all their food is tested for pathogens and is safe and I am sure others are the same but may be more harder to rule out if you prepared the diet. It seems a bit silly to me as the dogs should not be able to lick the faces of the children anyway and there are a lot of pathogens in a dogs mouth already whether it eats raw food or not.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:24 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

snowleopard wrote:
I am sorry I have not let you know how Buddyís diet is going.

Buddy did not like raw food which I prepared myself for him, he just looked at it and walked away. I think I recall someone saying on the forum in another thread that it can take some dogs a while to start to eat raw food but with Buddyís health problem I did not want to mess about so I put him on a better quality dry food mixed with a new wet food and he loves it.

Although many of you feed your dogs raw food I donít think feeding raw food to my dogs is for me, I didnít feel comfortable with it but I gave it a try.

I was reading in an article that a charity has banned dogs fed raw food from going into schools to encourage children to read, as the children read to the dogs, due to the transfer of pathogens from the dogs to the children. One raw food manufacture said all their food is tested for pathogens and is safe and I am sure others are the same but may be more harder to rule out if you prepared the diet. It seems a bit silly to me as the dogs should not be able to lick the faces of the children anyway and there are a lot of pathogens in a dogs mouth already whether it eats raw food or not.


Thanks for the update Chris Very Happy raw food is not for everyone or even every dog, but at least you gave it a try. I quite agree about that silly ruling, as you say dogs mouths are full of pathogens no matter what they eat and they shouldn't be licking childrens faces anyway. 'elf and safety gone mad again Mad Rolling Eyes

Really pleased you have found something that Buddy likes and suits him Very Happy

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