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josermon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:51 am Reply with quoteBack to top

So, after many long conversations, moving away from the merle thing and all the politics involved, what has been highlighted is that people want to know:- how do you ascertain that the puppies that you are interested in are free from genetic defects, or even LIKELY to be free?

How does someone new to the breed that isn’t in the “know” make sure that the puppy they buy will be free from SLO and Addisons for instance?

We’re told about the health checks being done; hopefully responsible breeders are hip and elbow scoring and testing eyes, but what about the rest of the problems?

This is the first advert that google took me to:-

Ready Bearded Collie Brown Puppies Kc Girls
£800

PURE Pedigree KC reg Bearded collie girl puppies !! 10 weeks old, ready for their new family ! Born and reared in a loving family home,( not in kennels) use to children, cat and plenty of cuddles. Vet checked, Wormed, micro chipped, 1st injection, Pedigree etc.

Both mum, dad and grandma can be seen. Excellent pedigree, no inbreeding, many champions (ch Blenmerrow dream Maker of Sammara, Ch potterdale Privillege, ch Coalacre lampoon & ch Caramac Crown Prince ! to name just a few )
2 gorgeous girls with fun, friendly & confident personality !!!
girl £800


I’d disagree about the inbreeding as Potterdale Privillege has Lyric John on both sides of his pedigree – basically he was mated to his own granddaughter. However, what is the result, will these be healthy pups?

What are the breeds clubs doing to help? How are people being helped to find healthy pups? What do the people who hold puppy lists do – do they tell people new to the breed what they should be looking for? Do they warn them? Is any record being kept of the dogs with problems? Is there any form of information sheet detailing all the problems?

Can anyone put together an advice sheet for anyone out there wanting a puppy? As we all know, once you've seen the puppies, it's way too late! Very Happy

Jo

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:30 am Reply with quoteBack to top

josermon wrote:


This is the first advert that google took me to:-

Ready Bearded Collie Brown Puppies Kc Girls
£800

PURE Pedigree KC reg Bearded collie girl puppies !! 10 weeks old, ready for their new family ! Born and reared in a loving family home,( not in kennels) use to children, cat and plenty of cuddles. Vet checked, Wormed, micro chipped, 1st injection, Pedigree etc.

Both mum, dad and grandma can be seen. Excellent pedigree, no inbreeding, many champions (ch Blenmerrow dream Maker of Sammara, Ch potterdale Privillege, ch Coalacre lampoon & ch Caramac Crown Prince ! to name just a few )
2 gorgeous girls with fun, friendly & confident personality !!!
girl £800




Jo


Is anyone going to volunteer to tell Jo the background and FBC's very own history on this "breeder" which proves perfectly why you don't look for puppies on the internet and why the Breed Club Puppy Lists are the way to get advice?!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:32 am Reply with quoteBack to top

belindasteer wrote:

Is anyone going to volunteer to tell Jo the background and FBC's very own history on this "breeder" which proves perfectly why you don't look for puppies on the internet and why the Breed Club Puppy Lists are the way to get advice?!


Back to the questions:-

What are the breeds clubs doing to help? How are people being helped to find healthy pups? What do the people who hold puppy lists do – do they tell people new to the breed what they should be looking for? Do they warn them? Is any record being kept of the dogs with problems? Is there any form of information sheet detailing all the problems?

Can anyone put together an advice sheet for anyone out there wanting a puppy? As we all know, once you've seen the puppies, it's way too late!

Jo

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:50 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I did suggest that we should have a few lines directly on the homepage giving some warnings / guidance for people looking, but it wasn't taken up.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:15 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi,

Jo, I agree with what you are saying, we need a written document with facts about breeding lines ( Working and Show ) to help new owners make their own mind up about who they can trust in purchasing a puppy. Perhaps at some time in the future we could somehow attach this document and other information relevant to the purchasing of Beardies to other Beardie sites and who ever holds the puppy list could also pass this document/ Information on to potential owners. I also checked the inbreeding for Maddie, it is 25.1%

I have spent the time since losing Maddie, researching medical papers about Addisons and other AI illnesses in the Beardie world.(my vet is now helping me and is pointing me to documents that I didn’t know was available to the normal pet owner) Also I have contacted a few Breeders (who will remain unnamed) for some more information. A lot of this info I will not include until I have proof and then it will turn into fact.

It would be much appreciated if all users on this site could register their dogs on the Beacon for Heath site, with their dog’s details and any illnesses, food intolerances and allergies. I can assure you that there is not a catch in doing this. I know that some of you have already added your dogs. This is a site where anyone can do this who owns a Beardie, not just breeders, you can then follow how litter mates are doing, and also if there is anything going through the breeding lines.

I have added Maddie and will also add Dyllan and Flynn to the Beacon database.

Belinda you stated on this subject “ Is anyone going to volunteer to tell Jo the background and FBC's very own history on this "breeder" which proves perfectly why you don't look for puppies on the internet and why the Breed Club Puppy Lists are the way to get advice?!”
I know nothing of this breeder !

We had the puppy list for all 3 of our dogs, and my breeder for Maddie was on this list.
Why? I thought that I did everything right, how wrong was that ?

You also stated in the Merles issue “Sue, I am so terribly sorry to hear about your little Maddie, some breeders do let the side (and the breed) down, and Maddie's breeder seems to have been one of them, her ignorance is breathtaking”
Why were they on the list Belinda, please tell me, because I really do want to know!

Also there are 22 Beardies on the Beacon database with the MDR-1 mutation

How I see it is that, I did the right thing as directed by the puppy list. How many other owners and potential owners of this beautiful breed did the same thing?

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the beards
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:44 am Reply with quoteBack to top

I know this has the potential to be contraversial but I do agree with Jo.

I have quite a detailed background on one of my beards and he has Pepperland Lyric John at Potterdale all over his family on both sides.

Yet, he comes with the Acknowledgement of being bred from a Champion Stud dog and Champion Show dog on his father's side. He also came from lists supplied by KC.

This beardie has a heart murmer, he is extremely noise/sound sensitive, a very 'iffy' temperament (he was described by beardie rescue as being a "difficult dog"), and also has a condition with his claws (name so long and complicated that I can't write it down!) but his claws split and break, grow twisted and splay outwards. So far he has had 5 or 6 surgically removed and my vet is convinced this is down to auto-immune problems.

But, this dog is supposed to have come from 'responsible breeders'.

So, how do buyers know where to go to get correct information?


PS Happy Birthday for tomorrow Jo.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:22 am Reply with quoteBack to top

Its very interesting Jo that the first advert you have found leads you to a lady who is well known amongst both breeders and many of us on the FBC as she caused a lot of worry and upset here.
http://www.beardedcollies.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3182&highlight=simpsation
http://www.beardedcollies.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3188&highlight=simpsation
http://www.beardedcollies.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3438&highlight=simpsation
http://www.beardedcollies.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3399&highlight=simpsation

and there are more too. This will give you some reading and also help to push the point that buying off the internet is really not a good idea.


So I agree ...any prospective puppy owner really has to do lots of research if they want to avoid problems.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:25 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I am answering this as Belinda, and not as the Sec of the SCBCC but obviously have some experience of this issue. The Clubs advise puppy buyers to buy KC registered puppies from breeders who are members of the Breed Clubs as the Codes of Ethics and Breeders Guidelines (and KC Assured Breeder scheme) all act as a standard of good breeding practice. I tell everyone I speak to that if there is anything they are unhappy with when they visit a breeder they should call me and tell me so that I can reassure them or investigate the problem further.

We advise people to look at pedigrees on Irena's site so that they can see who the extended family are, how often particular names appear, what each hip score is and how many offspring each has. We can now advise that they can look at the breeding co-efficient on the KC Mate Select site. Obviously we have to give them background info to explain why these things are important and what they mean, and how complicated it all is, but it is a very useful tool. We are all aware that beardies go back on a small gene pool and close matings took place while the breed was being established, that is no secret, and why it is so useful to have the Beardie Pedigree site (and now Gertie's and the KC Mate Select sites). We advise about hipscoring and eye testing and explain that the breed seems to have a vulnerability to problems with the immune system, and that we are trying really hard to understand what these issues are and how we can prevent them. We also explain that these are all issues facing several other breeds of dogs. We explain that we organise seminars and are taking part in research to try and understand these issues further, and to help us do that we issue health questionnaires and make the findings available to anyone who wants them particularly those in the Veterinary field. As holder of the SCBCC puppy list for more than 10 years I can honestly say that most people phoning to find a new beardie have lost previous beardies through cancer, not immune related disorders. I know cancer can also be related to the immune system,but it is cancer that kills the majority of dogs in all breeds.

We tell them about BeaCon but do say that the dogs registered are a small sample of beardies and so cannot be taken as a true snapshot of the breed as a whole, info can often be inaccurate and out of date and it is more likely that people with ill dogs enter their details than those with well dogs. BUT that it is a fabulous resource and that all beardie folk should enter their dogs details and keep them updated.

If someone is asking about working beardies I guide them towards the Working Beardie Society and away from the internet - as I do for all puppy buyers. I tell everyone that no proper breeder advertises puppies on the internet, they don't need to as properly bred beardie puppies are in short supply, and so if puppies are advertised this way there is a good (for that read bad) reason. I do have to explain tho that the Working Beardie Breeders do not carry out the health tests that KC breeders do, and that there is no easy/online way of checking the ancestry of the dogs or numbers of litters bred/ages/inbreeding status etc, but obviously that they should ask all of this from the breeder and the Working Beardie Society.

The beardie world is very small, most of us know one another and keep tabs on each others dogs and litters. The FBC plays a valuable role in adding to the Beardie Mafia, as I call it, all working to keep all beardies as safe as possible.
Breeders are more aware than others of the health of other people's dogs! We have to choose fathers for our babies and/or buy puppies ourselves so believe me, take this matter very seriously. Of course there will be some who are more open than others, who have different standards of what's acceptable and what's not - that's the nature of people in all walks of life, but witch-hunts and confrontation is not the way to foster this openness, in my opinion it can only be achieved through information sharing and honest conversation.

If there was a test for Auto Immune diseases ALL the proper beardie breeders would jump at testing their dogs, just like they all now hipscore, the Clubs would probably make is a requirement too. The Breed Clubs are now are promoting eye testing with free eye tests at Club shows for veterans and subsidised tests for younger dogs - we are trying SO hard to get things right and it is so hard to take when a few people knock the efforts of well meaning people who love the breed. We all have a role to play in this and it is such a sadness to me that so much harm has been done to the campaign to raise awareness of new issues facing beardies by a few outspoken (and often inaccurate) individuals.

Incidentally I have had the breeder of one of the dogs mentioned in the internet advert referred to by Jo on the phone this morning, she is horrified that great grandchildren from her beardie have fallen into the hands of "breeders" like this. Sue "Hairies" the reason you don't know of this "breeder" is because she isn't a proper breeder. She has done matings of beardies crossed with sharpei, bred from underage and unscored dogs and I have had complaints of how the puppies and dogs look and interact with visitors. She has several breeds. All the Breed Clubs would steer you away from her. Re your own breeder, I have no idea who it was, but when I questioned her knowledge I was referring to the comments you say she made when you spoke to her at the Beardie Spectacular. It sounded to me as is she needed to be better informed in order to help you, but I spose we all have to keep trying to learn and develop our knowledge - again that's where honest and non confrontational discussion and information sharing - and not a witch-hunt - is vital.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:43 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I actually find these posts very interesting, I just checked my inbreeding percentages for my four dogs,one is 33% ,one 27% and these two have both suffered from many health problems, including AI,food intolerences,cruciate problems ,my other two with lower inbreeding scores have suffered with no health problems whatsoever...(fingers crossed) I agree that sometimes the info given is not always 100% correct but if it causes Beardie owners to be more aware and to start using Beacon for health to log their health problems ,or read up on breeding lines,or Auto Immune conditions , then some good has come from the post

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:57 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

OK. I am coming on board this one to ask a question:

1. As Baillie is half and half can I put his details on beacon on is it just for KC ones?

Although Baillie is half and half I am just as interested in his health and the health of all beardies whatever their ancestry and would be first in line to do anything to protect the breed.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:10 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

the beards wrote:

This beardie has a heart murmer, he is extremely noise/sound sensitive, a very 'iffy' temperament (he was described by beardie rescue as being a "difficult dog"), and also has a condition with his claws (name so long and complicated that I can't write it down!) but his claws split and break, grow twisted and splay outwards. So far he has had 5 or 6 surgically removed and my vet is convinced this is down to auto-immune problems.


I'm so sorry to hear this Sad There's a fair bit of information here:-

http://www.beaconforhealth.org/skin_nails_teeth_main.html

Also support groups mentioned.

Do please register his details with the site, the more info they have the better. Horrible horrible thing to happen and I'm hearing the same story from more and more friends Sad

Hugs to you and yours,

Jox

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PS Happy Birthday for tomorrow Jo.


Thank-you! Laughing I don't want to know how old I'm going to be!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:37 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Devon-Maid wrote:
Its very interesting Jo that the first advert you have found leads you to a lady who is well known amongst both breeders and many of us on the FBC as she caused a lot of worry and upset here.


Yes but that's the point, we all do our shopping on the internet these days, our weekly shop, books, music, lots of normal everyday people are going to look for a puppy there too and that advert is very plausible. It says "KC registered" and lots of people will think that means something other than it does. People need easily available information to help them judge breeders and puppies by; they need in effect a yard stick. We should be able to provide a list of questions to ask, make knowledge about the breed easily available so that they know what to look for.

Most people only think about these questions once every 10 years or so and the average person doesn't spend time going to seminars and will skip over dry factual reports in favour of the wonderful pictures that we all love of the dogs.

Where does that leave them when they are looking for a puppy?

There's a lot of experienced people on this forum that can help I think.

Jo

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Marvellous, thank-you Belinda!

A few questions:-

belindasteer wrote:
The Clubs advise puppy buyers to buy KC registered puppies from breeders who are members of the Breed Clubs as the Codes of Ethics and Breeders Guidelines (and KC Assured Breeder scheme) all act as a standard of good breeding practice.


Where can we find these? Are they enforced? IE what happens if a breeder is shown to have broken the code of ethics?

Quote:
We advise people to look at pedigrees on Irena's site so that they can see who the extended family are, how often particular names appear, what each hip score is and how many offspring each has. We can now advise that they can look at the breeding co-efficient on the KC Breed Mate site.


Wonderful are these the correct addresses?:-

http://www.bcpedigree.se/irena/beardis.nsf

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/

Quote:
We advise about hipscoring and eye testing


Good, are breeders Thyroid screening?

Quote:
We explain that we organise seminars and are taking part in research to try and understand these issues further, and to help us do that we issue health questionnaires and make the findings available to anyone who wants them particularly those in the Veterinary field.


I remember all sorts of seminars during the (admittedly brief!) time I was a member - are these recorded anywhere for people to read?

Quote:
As holder of the SCBCC puppy list for more than 10 years


Can you tell us a little more? How are breeders accepted onto the list?

Quote:
I do have to explain tho that the Working Beardie Breeders do not carry out the health tests that KC breeders do,


So the breeder in the am advert carries out those tests?

Quote:
The beardie world is very small, most of us know one another and keep tabs on each others dogs and litters.


All too often that's why people turn to the internet - they don't want to get involved with the perceived infighting that occurs, or with "kennel blindness". Ask a person on the street what they know about the breed showing world and they'll tell you it's all a setup with breeders doing favours etc. Most do not want to get involved, they just want a happy healthy Beardie. From the conversations I've had recently there's a lot of them!

Before any starts on me again (Rolling Eyes) notice I was discussing the average person's image - especially after the Crufts expose's and NOT my own opinion!

Quote:
If there was a test for Auto Immune diseases ALL the proper beardie breeders would jump at testing their dogs, just like they all now hipscore, the Clubs would probably make is a requirement too.


So what about the BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme, thyroid and MDR1 screening?

Thanks!

Jo

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:07 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Vix wrote:
I actually find these posts very interesting, I just checked my inbreeding percentages for my four dogs,one is 33% ,one 27% and these two have both suffered from many health problems, including AI,food intolerences,cruciate problems ,my other two with lower inbreeding scores have suffered with no health problems whatsoever...(fingers crossed) I agree that sometimes the info given is not always 100% correct but if it causes Beardie owners to be more aware and to start using Beacon for health to log their health problems ,or read up on breeding lines,or Auto Immune conditions , then some good has come from the post


Hi Vix, it's all so interesting isn't it. I think it's more about the individual dogs and how their genes combine with the genes of dogs they are mated to and not just about how often they appear in a pedigree, it's like people, it's the combination of genes that produce the individuality of the offspring. Obviously if there is a beardie regularly producing unhealthy children to a varierty of partners then that is a real issue, but most of the time it's an unlucky combination of two healthy dogs that produce something unhealthy.
Anecdotally of all the 11 beardies I have loved and lived with the one with the highest coefficient (24.3%) lived until 2 months short of her 16th birthday and others whose COI was far lower died around 11yrs, from cancer or kidney failure, or most recently from arthritis. I'm pleased to say that (through careful planning when breeding) Claudie's is 11.6% so hopefully she'll outlive me - she can certainly out run me!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:21 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi Belinda
So 33% must be quite a high one then Belinda ?,Did your 16 year old girl suffer with any AI at all?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:30 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Vix wrote:
So 33% must be quite a high one then Belinda ?,


Vicky - the Bearded Collie average breeding co-efficient is 14.6% if this is any help?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:11 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

33% is pretty high, as CJ says, the breed average is lower.

My girl had no AI type issues at all, her hips were 3:2 and she was a lovely happy beardie. Her name was Shandeville Sundae, Melba Jane to her friends, see http://www.bcpedigree.se/irena/beardis.nsf/bokstav/D0D0B766BC9C2BC4C1256B22005B37AF
She had a closed pyometra at age 13 which ruptured and nearly killed her and vestibular syndrome at 14 which left her with funny twitchy fits (focal seizures if you want to look them up) and these gradually developed into big seizures which became hard to manage as they were unpredictable. They became more frequent in the last few months and left her very disorientated so eventually I had to let her go on 30th December 2008, she'd have been 16 on the 28th Feb.

Clemmie's COI was 21.5% and as you know she lived til she was 15 and a half and died a few months ago from a blood clot from a tumour in her lung that we had no idea was there as she had no symptoms at all, she was running and barking and playing til 24 hours before she died and had hardly a days illness in her life. (Sunnyvale Clementine of Windsteer) Melba and Clemmie were half sisters and very alike. I also had another half sister, Callie, Vilmorin Firebird at Windsteer, who died suddenly at 11 of lung cancer, her COI was 15.7% the lowest of the three sisters - just shows how hard it is to make sense of all this information.
Three lovely girls, all very much missed .

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Hi,

I have not posted on this site for a while, we lost our beardie, Ollie , in June but I still love to see what you are all up to.

This topic interests me as for many years we struggled with Ollie, he was very noise sensitive and aggressive with it, he would not be groomed so we had to have him clipped off. Day to day care was difficult especially if it involved touching him We spent many years trying to make his life more comfortable but he was hard work. It broke my heart to see him like it, he was our first dog and came from a very reputable breeder, with the same blood line as mentioned before. The guilt we felt, constantly thinking it was our inexperience that was the problem has put me off ever having another dog.

In later life he suffered with problems to both back legs resulting in two Cruiate operations, never really recovering. He was unable to take non steriod medication as it caused abdominal bleeding, it was later discovered that he had athritis in his front legs, so he was prescribed an ever increasing dose of tramadol to keep the pain at bay. We could not let him continue suffering so we feel we did the best thing for him.

It is a minefield out there, you try to follow all the guidelines but these poor dogs are still out there.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:27 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Poor Ollie, I remember you telling us about him, the clever beardie boy who worried about everything! Life is very unfair sometimes, I know you tried everything you could with him, I am so sorry you lost him.
I think that sometimes two healthy and normal dogs can produce an unhealthy child, just like 2 healthy people can do the same. My Daisy is one of those dogs who seems to always draw the short straw health wise, it's just the unfair hand she was dealt as all her siblings are healthy and well.

Thinking of you Mandy, have you found a new four legged friend or is it too soon yet
Belinda x

ps Jo, not ignoring you and will reply but I MUST do something with my dogs and get some housework done first!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:38 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thank you for your kind words, I think you are right but it doesn't make it any easier. We haven't got another dog or plans at the moment, I am still very drawn to the breed, but the experience we had with ollie makes it very difficult to consider another one especially so soon.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:42 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

I think Ollie was a one off - have you got any info from his breeder about his siblings, if they were similar to Ollie with all his probs the there's obviously a problem, but it sounds to me as if he was pretty unique - but you know that already. If I can help you at all do get in touch, I'll do whatever I can to help.
xx

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the beards
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Joined: 01 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:17 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject:

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This topic interests me as for many years we struggled with Ollie, he was very noise sensitive and aggressive with it, he would not be groomed so we had to have him clipped off. Day to day care was difficult especially if it involved touching him We spent many years trying to make his life more comfortable but he was hard work.


I empathise as mine is similar. I have avoided having his coat clipped off as I was told it would grow back thicker and he already has an over-long, over-profuse coat. He suffers dreadfully in summer and has trashed 3 pairs of curtains and pulled down the rails trying to get out of the patio doors in the middle of the night when its hot.

Managing his coat in winter is little better as his coat takes hours to dry when wet. But he was bred to be a champion show dog as his sire before him. His temperament has improved since he's been with us but his previous owner told us 'he communicates by using his teeth" Shocked Shocked .

But he comes from a 'reputable, KC recommended breeder'.

Being Hip-scored and eye tested isn't enough. More information is needed by those wanting to chose wisely when selecting a puppy.
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JerseyPaul
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Joined: 19 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:12 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Can i just say thankyou to everyone for this thread. As much as its nice keeping an eye on the general chit chat it is threads like this that I think make this community invaluable. I love to read these and I have to say that as i was so recently ago 'the person new to beardies searching the internet' I feel my input might actually be useful.

To start I want to make clear... the internet is a great source of info and like it or not if people want something these days many people will always go to the internet first.... and this is even more so for those people who start knowing very little as those are the people who have no idea where to start looking. First time owners wont have a vets or breeders advice as people without pets dont know vets or breeders. So thats a fact for most people the internet is the number one stop for info these days. Ok and so most importantly the info they find needs to be the right info. I mean i know everyone here is well involved in the beardie world but as a complete newbie if i find an advert for some beardie pups like the one above why would i not buy one? Its making all the right noises and to be honest even lovely caring people like me who love dogs might well see no reason to look any further. So ok the issue here then is how to get the right info out. I totally agree that the FBC homepage (or whatever page appears top when you google 'bearded collie') needs to have this onfo on it or at the very least links to trusted sites that although less popular than FBC have good info)

I understand that no system is perfect and (although i might be wrong) I dont think the KC seems to have the power or the resources to strike off/deregister and if needed prosecute people who are not responsible breeders. And they prob arnt the right organisation to do this anyway for beardies as clearly the whole KC/Working split is an issue and the irresponsible breeder sadly can fall on either side of the KC/working divide. Its also a fact that many people dont care or are intimidated about a KC bred puppy, Julies aunty for one loves dogs but always buys /rescues cross breeds because she believes there to be fewer health issues (thats a whole different arguement). I honestly think the only way you can try to reduce these internet puppies is to make it easier for people to find a responsible breeder. Now without a massive advertising budget to buy googles top spot the only way we can do this is to make it easier for people to get to the info. The fact is its not our site its Pauls site that we use but i for one would love to see links to trusted info plastered all over the front page of FBC. I dont want to see an FBC puppy list but we do need to give advice. If asked people on here give the right links and contacts but i would guess that less tha half the people who find FBC during their puppy hunt will register and ask these questions. Everyone knows that breeders breed for different reasons and even within the responsible breeders group there are many different priorities for breeding. Im over the moon that i now have a pup who was bred for temprament and health. He probably isnt going to win crufts any time soon but I would guess that some champion dogs who are bred to be best in show will not necessarily be a better family pet than Hamley and as im sure Colin will testify too its also not the best dog for agility. Sorry if im repeating what i have said elsewhere but I honestly believe that if you made it clear to people that the puppy lists contain many different breeders and that the list holders can help you find the perfect pup for you whatever you want from it (i believe links to responsible working puppy lists should be included too). Its only now really as i sit here with a pup (who ironically has started chewing my arm now) who is perfect for us that i can see how important it is to find the right breeder. In my view there should be a blacklist (like for credit cards) of people who are not responsible breeders because they have on more than one occasion bred irresponsibly or without the correct care and research. Who decides this i dont know but even the health history of past litters would be enough. I believe this info is starting to be put out there but you need something eyecatching on pages like the FBC homepage to get potential owners looking. I knew nothing about hip scores but once i was told to look (as a responsible person) i enjoyed looking up all the litters that became availible. Sorry for being long winded but honestly even us talking about it will help as these threads can appear on a google search so as long as we keep saying Bearded collie, Bearded Collie, Beardies, Bearded Collie puppy etc soon google will soon catch on that FBC should be above all the one stop internet puppy shops. For beardies I think lots of the problem is that there are not loads of beardies about so it can be a wait to get a well bred puppy and most of the puppies bred never need to be advertised so therefore there is little or no genuine responsible breeders advertising puppies in competition with the puppy farms.

Until the world has more beardies in it this will always be the case.... so on a less serious note... Go forth and multiply! Beardies can take over the world! Rolling Eyes

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Jacquietwig
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:01 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Jo, regarding thyroid testing, I asked my vet about this and she said there was little point in testing young stock before breeding as thyroid problems develop later in life.

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tb
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:47 pm Reply with quoteBack to top

Thanks to the people on here that I have spoken to as a direct result of subjects like this being discussed and somtimes argued , I have been able to make a more informed decision.

You know who you are and thank you for taking the time to share your knowladge

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